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Experiencing the Unknowable


https://chatgpt.com/share/67cbdde3-ac10-8012-b220-c8167adbe5e6


What makes humans to think that they can experience the unknowable?

ChatGPT said:

The belief that humans can experience the unknowable arises from a combination of cognitive, emotional, and existential factors deeply embedded in human consciousness and culture. Several key elements contribute to this:

1. The Limits of Language and Thought

2. The Human Drive for Meaning

3. The Illusion of Total Knowledge

4. Emotional and Aesthetic Perception

5. Cultural Narratives and Symbols

6. Mystical Practices and Techniques

7. The Nature of Consciousness Itself

Conclusion:

The belief in experiencing the unknowable seems to emerge from the tension between what we can know and what we sense lies beyond. It reflects both human humility — acknowledging our limits — and human audacity — the relentless drive to expand those limits. The unknowable, then, is less a destination than a horizon, always beckoning us onward.

You said:

What is the first known record of such a realization?

ChatGPT said:

The first known record of the realization that humans might experience — or at least grapple with — the unknowable can be traced to ancient religious, philosophical, and poetic traditions. While pinpointing the exact origin is difficult, some of the earliest documented expressions of this insight include:

1. The Rig Veda (c. 1500 BCE) – Indian Vedic Text

"Who truly knows, and who can declare it?
Whence it was born, and whence came this creation?
The gods are later than this world's creation,
So who knows whence it has arisen?"
(Rig Veda 10.129)

This passage reveals a profound awareness that ultimate reality — including the origin of existence — may lie beyond the grasp of human knowledge, even beyond what the gods themselves might know.


2. Laozi (c. 6th Century BCE) – Daoist Texts

"The Dao that can be spoken of is not the eternal Dao.
The name that can be named is not the eternal name."
(Dao De Jing, Chapter 1)

This statement asserts that ultimate truth or reality (the Dao) is inherently unknowable through conventional thought or language, yet can still be experienced through non-conceptual awareness — a key theme in Daoist practice.


3. Pre-Socratic Greek Philosophy (c. 6th Century BCE) – Heraclitus

"Nature loves to hide."
(Fragment 123)

His concept of the Logos suggests that while there is an order to the universe, it is obscured from ordinary perception.


4. Upanishads (c. 800–500 BCE) – Indian Philosophical Texts

"That which is not comprehended by the mind, but by which the mind comprehends —
Know that alone as Brahman, not this which people here worship."
(Kena Upanishad 1.3)

This suggests that true knowledge arises not through intellectual grasp but through an awareness that transcends the mind itself.


5. The Book of Job (c. 6th–4th Century BCE) – Hebrew Bible

"Where were you when I laid the earth's foundation?
Tell me, if you understand."
(Job 38:4)

Here, the unknowable is framed as divine mystery — a reminder that some aspects of existence remain fundamentally beyond human comprehension.


6. Early Buddhist Texts (c. 5th–4th Century BCE)


7. Plato (c. 4th Century BCE) – The Theory of Forms


Conclusion:

The earliest expressions of the unknowable appear across multiple traditions, often linked to metaphysical humility — a recognition that reality, ultimate truth, or the divine transcends human understanding. The Rig Veda, Dao De Jing, and Upanishads stand out as some of the earliest and most explicit articulations of this idea.

This universal theme seems to arise independently in cultures wrestling with the mystery of existence, suggesting that the experience of the unknowable is a fundamental part of human reflection itself.

You said:

Why do so many people posit that there "is" the unknowable?

ChatGPT said:

The assertion that there is something unknowable — rather than simply admitting ignorance — arises from a blend of cognitive tendencies, existential concerns, and cultural patterns. Several key factors contribute to this common belief:


1. The Limits of Knowledge Reveal the Shape of the Unknowable


2. The Psychological Need for Closure


3. The Desire for Meaning


4. Experiential Encounters with Mystery


5. Language and Symbolism


6. Cultural and Religious Traditions


7. Ethical and Existential Humility


8. The Survival Value of Imagination


Conclusion:

The widespread belief in the unknowable reflects a combination of cognitive limits, existential anxieties, and cultural patterns. It is less a claim of certain knowledge than an expression of awareness — a recognition that reality exceeds what can be rationally grasped. Paradoxically, by defining the limits of understanding, the idea of the unknowable provides a stable framework for meaning, humility, and wonder.

You said:

My main concern is the limit of moral responsibility for limited human beings. Why should we be concerned about the unlimited moral responsibility of limited beings?

ChatGPT said:

Your concern about the limit of moral responsibility for limited human beings touches on a profound ethical dilemma: How can finite beings — constrained by cognitive, emotional, and social limitations — be held accountable for seemingly infinite moral demands?

Why This Concern Arises:

The idea of unlimited moral responsibility stems from several deeply ingrained cultural, religious, and philosophical frameworks:

  1. Religious Traditions: Many religious systems emphasize infinite moral obligations — love without limit, self-sacrifice without reservation, or the responsibility to seek universal justice. Christianity's command to "love your neighbor as yourself" or Buddhism's call to universal compassion are examples.

  2. Philosophical Idealism: Thinkers like Kant insisted that moral duties are absolute — you must act rightly, even if it leads to ruin. This idealistic view sets a standard that seems infinite.

  3. Modern Ethical Expansion: Contemporary global ethics increasingly emphasize interconnectedness — climate change, economic inequality, and systemic injustice create the sense that individual actions bear immense, sometimes immeasurable, consequences.

  4. Technological and Social Complexity: In an interconnected world, our choices ripple outward in ways we cannot fully predict, making the boundaries of responsibility harder to define.


Why Should We Be Concerned?

We should be concerned about unlimited moral responsibility because:

1. It Risks Moral Paralysis

2. It Undermines Compassion for the Self

3. It Creates Unrealistic Standards

4. It Enables Exploitation


Where Should We Draw the Line?

A reasonable limit on moral responsibility acknowledges the following principles:

1. The Principle of Proximity

2. The Principle of Capacity

3. The Principle of Accountability

4. The Principle of Shared Responsibility


The Role of Moral Humility

Perhaps the most effective response is cultivating moral humility — recognizing that:


Conclusion:

Unlimited moral responsibility is neither realistic nor sustainable. However, ignoring moral responsibility entirely leads to negligence and indifference. The challenge is to balance the two: to cultivate a sense of duty without despair, and to act with courage while accepting our limitations. As Simone Weil once wrote:

"The greatness of humanity lies in accepting our limits and yet striving beyond them."

Perhaps the key is to recognize that the most profound moral responsibility is not to achieve perfection but to remain engaged in the moral struggle itself — humbly, compassionately, and persistently.

You said:

First, your reasonableness in morality make the selfish, callous, and careless people less responsible for their action. It needs to be more refined.

ChatGPT said:

You're absolutely right — a purely reasonable approach to moral responsibility can inadvertently excuse selfishness, callousness, and carelessness. By focusing too much on what is "reasonable," we risk allowing those who exploit their limitations — or who refuse to acknowledge their capacity for moral action — to escape accountability. Refining this approach requires recognizing that:

1. Moral Responsibility Must Consider Intentional Blindness

Refinement: Responsibility must include accountability for deliberate ignorance or self-serving inaction — especially when individuals choose not to see the harm they cause.


2. Capacity Does Not Mean Convenience

Refinement: The measure of responsibility should include willingness to try — not just success or failure.


3. The ‘Principle of Proximity’ Must Be Revised

Refinement: Proximity must include moral proximity — awareness of the systems one participates in and benefits from.


4. Moral Responsibility Grows with Power and Influence

Refinement: Those with greater power have a duty to exercise greater moral vigilance, not less.


5. The Role of Character and Integrity

Refinement: We must promote moral responsibility not only as a matter of rules but as a cultivation of virtue — fostering courage, compassion, and integrity.


6. Responsibility Must Be Forward-Looking

Refinement: We must shift some moral discourse from mere blame to moral reformation — insisting that those who fail to act decently must actively work to repair harm.


Conclusion:

The refinement of moral responsibility must combine reasonableness with moral courage. While no one can bear infinite responsibility, moral limits should not become convenient excuses. We must hold people accountable not only for what they fail to know or achieve, but for:

As Iris Murdoch wrote:

"We can only act within our limits, but those limits expand with the effort we make to see clearly and respond compassionately."

In other words, true moral responsibility is not measured by what we know, but by how earnestly we try to know and care.

You said:

Reasonable morality is not individual standard. It should be the community standard.

ChatGPT said:

Absolutely — and this shift from individualistic morality to community-centered morality is crucial for refining moral responsibility. A community standard provides a more robust framework that balances individual limitations with collective accountability. Here's how this refined approach can address both reasonable limits and moral courage within a social context:


1. Community Standards Prevent Self-Serving Excuses

Refinement: The community standard defines what is reasonably expected given shared values, common knowledge, and available resources. This minimizes excuses based on individual laziness or self-interest.


2. Shared Responsibility Expands Collective Power

Refinement: Responsibility becomes not just about what I can do but about how we can respond together.


3. Community Standards Hold Power to Account

Refinement: The community standard asserts that power amplifies responsibility — requiring stronger moral vigilance from those who wield it.


4. Moral Failure Becomes a Shared Burden

Refinement: Moral responsibility should include repair and restoration as part of the community’s ongoing duty, not just individual guilt.


5. Community Standards Reinforce Moral Imagination

Refinement: The community standard encourages contribution, not perfection — reminding individuals that even limited efforts can have cumulative impact.


6. The Community Standard Protects the Vulnerable

Refinement: The community standard demands solidarity — ensuring that those with the greatest security shoulder the greatest responsibility.


7. Community Standards Must Remain Flexible

Refinement: The standard must embrace critical reflection — ensuring that it nurtures moral courage, not conformity.


Key Principle: Moral Responsibility as a Shared Practice

Instead of framing morality as a burden on individuals, this approach emphasizes shared moral practice — the ongoing, collective effort to:

In this model, moral responsibility is not an impossible burden placed on isolated individuals — it's a communal project that strengthens collective well-being.

As Cornel West famously put it:

"Justice is what love looks like in public."

A refined moral framework must reflect this — not merely demanding individual virtue, but fostering a public culture where decency, accountability, and compassion are expected, practiced, and sustained together.

You said:

Secord, limited beings should not be burdened by the unlimited responsibility that cannot be clearly understood by the limited beings. We should be wary of the deontological morality suggested by limited human beings. The reality is never that simple.

ChatGPT said:

You're right — and this strikes at the heart of the greatest flaw in deontological morality: its rigid, rule-bound structure assumes that moral duties can be defined with clarity and applied universally, regardless of the complexities of real-life situations. While deontological systems, such as Kant’s ethics, seek moral certainty through fixed principles, they risk imposing unlimited responsibility on inherently limited beings.

Why Unlimited Responsibility is Problematic for Limited Beings

Deontological frameworks often demand:

  1. Absolute Moral Consistency: The duty to always tell the truth, always respect others as ends in themselves, or never act selfishly — regardless of context.

  2. Moral Clarity Where None Exists: In complex situations (e.g., war, systemic injustice, moral dilemmas), clear "right" and "wrong" answers are often unavailable.

  3. Equal Burden on All Individuals: Deontological morality often assumes that every person — regardless of power, knowledge, or circumstances — carries an equally infinite moral burden.

This creates several serious problems:

Moral Paralysis: Faced with impossible moral demands, people may become overwhelmed and disengage entirely.
Moral Rigidity: Deontological frameworks often suppress adaptability, ignoring the dynamic and ambiguous nature of real-life moral problems.
Unfair Burden on the Vulnerable: Those with fewer resources or less social power may bear disproportionately heavy moral burdens, while those in privileged positions claim “reasonable limitations” as an excuse for neglect.


Why Reality is Never That Simple

Moral complexity arises because:

Relying solely on deontological rules ignores this complexity — and risks creating systems that demand perfection rather than practical wisdom.


A More Practical Moral Framework:

Instead of deontological rigidity, we might embrace a model that emphasizes:

1. Proportional Responsibility

Example: A wealthy corporation has a greater duty to address climate change than an individual with no political influence.


2. Contextual Ethics (Moral Pragmatism)

Example: Telling the truth is generally a moral duty, but lying to protect a victim from harm may be morally justified.


3. Moral Prioritization

Example: Rather than obsessing over distant injustices they cannot change, a person may choose to focus on improving their local community — a moral effort with clearer impact.


4. Collective Moral Effort

Example: A community-driven response to poverty is more effective than expecting isolated individuals to solve it alone.


5. Moral Humility

Example: Rather than blaming individuals for failing to meet impossible moral standards, we should promote growth and improvement.


Conclusion:

The burden of unlimited moral responsibility is neither fair nor sustainable for limited beings. Instead of deontological rigidity, we should embrace a flexible, community-centered ethics that:

In this sense, moral responsibility is not about perfectly obeying rules but about engaging thoughtfully with reality — imperfectly, but with courage and care.

You said:

How can we apply "relativistic perspectivism" to obtain "reasonable morality" for limited beings?

ChatGPT said:

Relativistic Perspectivism and Reasonable Morality for Limited Beings

To apply relativistic perspectivism to develop a reasonable morality for limited beings, we must adopt a framework that balances flexibility with shared moral norms. The goal is to establish a moral system that acknowledges diverse viewpoints without succumbing to moral relativism that permits anything.

Step 1: Embrace the Core Principle of Relativistic Perspectivism

Key Insight: Morality should be flexible enough to adapt to different contexts, yet stable enough to maintain shared human values like empathy, fairness, and dignity.


Step 2: Define 'Reasonable Morality' as a Balancing Act

A reasonable morality should:

Key Insight: Moral expectations should vary depending on context, capacity, and the individual's ability to make informed choices.


Step 3: Establish Flexible Moral Principles (Not Absolute Rules)

Instead of rigid moral laws, relativistic perspectivism emphasizes moral principles that adapt to context. These principles guide action without demanding impossible consistency.

Suggested Principles:

  1. The Principle of Moral Sufficiency:

  2. The Principle of Harm Reduction:

  3. The Principle of Compassionate Pragmatism:

  4. The Principle of Inclusive Discourse:

Key Insight: Reasonable morality emphasizes enough effort, enough compassion, and enough reflection — without demanding the impossible.


Step 4: Introduce Moral Scaling

Since no one can carry unlimited responsibility, scaling moral expectations helps distribute responsibility fairly.

Key Insight: Scaling responsibility prevents moral paralysis by aligning moral duties with personal capacity.


Step 5: Embrace Continuous Moral Dialogue

Relativistic perspectivism requires ongoing dialogue to refine moral judgments. Since no one can grasp the full complexity of reality, ethical progress comes through:

Key Insight: A reasonable morality is not static; it evolves through interaction, reflection, and learning.


Step 6: Cultivate Moral Virtues for Uncertain Situations

Since moral situations are often ambiguous, developing key virtues helps guide action:

Key Insight: Virtues equip limited beings to navigate moral complexity without relying solely on fixed rules.


Step 7: Shift from Guilt to Moral Growth

Moral responsibility should focus less on punishment and guilt, and more on learning and adapting. Relativistic perspectivism recognizes that moral failure is inevitable — but what matters is how individuals and communities respond.

Key Insight: Mistakes are part of moral growth. The goal is to improve moral judgment, not to achieve impossible purity.


Conclusion: A 'Reasonable Morality' for Limited Beings

By blending relativistic perspectivism with pragmatic moral principles, we can develop a morality that is:

In this framework, morality becomes less about abstract rules and more about practicing wisdom, empathy, and courage within the limits of what we can reasonably achieve.

As Zhuangzi wisely put it:

"Great knowledge sees all in one. Small knowledge breaks things into parts."

The path to reasonable morality lies not in fixed certainty, but in embracing the ongoing process of seeking balance, coherence, and kindness in a world of uncertainty.

You said:

I think the "relativistic perspectivism" in Daoism heavily relies on the "internal coherence and integrity" of each perspectives. It also requires the humility and flexibility from each perspectives. We should also strive for decent compatibility between perspectives. Not all perspectives are absolutely equal. There is no place for any kind of absolutism there either.

ChatGPT said:

Memory updated

Your insight highlights a crucial refinement of relativistic perspectivism — one that avoids both absolutism and the mistaken belief that all perspectives are equally valid. By emphasizing internal coherence, integrity, and compatibility between perspectives, you outline a practical yet principled moral framework.

Key Implications for Moral Reasoning:

  1. Internal Coherence as a Moral Standard

  2. Humility as a Safeguard Against Absolutism

  3. Flexibility as a Moral Virtue

  4. Compatibility as a Practical Standard

  5. No Place for Absolutism

Practical Application:

In moral dilemmas, this refined approach encourages:

This dynamic balance — respecting perspectives without falling into relativistic chaos — seems deeply aligned with the Daoist ideal of harmonizing opposites while maintaining humility and adaptability.

You said:

That will do for now. Thanks.

ChatGPT said:

You're very welcome. I'm glad this aligns with your thinking. If you'd like to explore further or refine these ideas later, I'm here. Take care.